Here’s John Rosenberger’s confession:
Do you believe dispensationalism? Yes or no? If not then you can’t teach here. Don’t even question the silliness that dispensationalism spawns.
2/3 of the Jews in the land of Jerusalem are prophesied to be killed again. No I don’t believe it! The ‘Jews’ we send to Jerusalem don’t believe it either. If they did why would they go there? They obviously believe a different eschatology, so why do we support them?
I do believe in a thousand year literal reign, just not the same way the dispensationalists believe. But I don’t believe in eternal torment in the flesh for everybody who doesn’t believe the good news, so even if I could have returned from my deacon sabbatical, I can’t now, because I don’t believe every word of our dispy-enhanced church creed. I won’t sign on to that because I don’t believe it’s all biblical. The reformers don’t either. The reformers were called covenant theologians. Dispensationalism didn’t even exist yet. Nobody was ‘inspired’ to point out dispensationalism until it was recently revealed to them. The term ‘dispensationalism’ first appeared in 1928. I grew up in it’s heyday and I used to believe it. Apparently even Kirk Cameron has grown up and left it behind.
No I don’t believe in Hell. The word Hell doesn’t even come from the original scriptures. The Greek Bible speaks of Hades, Gehenna, the lake of fire and Tartarus. Why can’t I teach about those four biblical words rather than teach Dante’s Hell-bent ungodly rationale for the never ending torment of the majority? Wouldn’t teaching the Bible be more biblical, even if it’s not creedal? shouldn’t we be allowed to truly explore every verse of the Bible? According to Jesus, perishing could only be avoided by being born again by the Holy Spirit. He first sent the Holy Spirit to the Jews in Jerusalem. They were told to wait there for the Holy Spirit before taking the good news from their Messiah to the nations.
Gehenna was the place of destruction Jesus pointed to when speaking to the Jews in the land. The word Gehenna is only used biblically when speaking to the old covenant people of God. The chosen Jews all transitioned into their new covenant by their Holy Spirit reformation. In that way and that way only, all God’s chosen people avoided perishing. Jesus lost none that were His. Jesus clearly told the Jews who were in the old covenant land that they must be born again or “perish”. We usually overlook that very simple word in one of the most recognized scriptures spoken to the Jews by The One True Jew. To many modern day theologians, perishing is just a figure of speech that really means never perishing and the chosen Jews were not all saved by their covenant rebirth.
Jesus explained how not to perish to the teacher of Israel. That teacher of the Jews could only imagine a flesh and blood rebirth that was not only silly to imagine but would still perish, so Jesus corrected him. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have life to the age.” (John 3:16) Jesus would be purged from teaching at our church because He taught perishing. The required definition of perishing is – eternal flesh burning even while it’s being restored. How else could a person in a resurrected earthy body of flesh and bone (without blood of course) burn forever, without ever being consumed? Evidently no flesh is ever allowed to perish in the absence of blood or with the addition of special non-blood fluid flowing through the resurrected veins. Every body gets indestructible flesh, fitted for both eternal life in Heaven or eternal suffering in Hell. I don’t believe it.
Jesus was resurrected without blood in His body. No I don’t believe that. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young used to believe that. That is how they tried to solve their own man-made dilemma. The Word of God says flesh and blood can’t inherit the kingdom, so, according to Smith and Young, Jesus got some supernatural fluid for His resurrected veins. He no longer had blood flowing through His veins. That’s how Jesus overcame 1 Corinthians 15:50. He left His blood in His old covenant land so He could inherit the kingdom in flesh and resurrection fluid (no longer called blood). I don’t believe it.
It’s rather absurd how we ‘rationalize’ away our exegetical credibility in order to keep our creed in the flesh. Perish must really mean the opposite of perish, which is ‘never perish’. Obviously, the real meaning of John 3:16 is: whoever believes in Him will not burn forever and never perish like everyone else. And the fact that flesh and blood can have no inheritance in the kingdom must really mean super fluid or no fluid at all is required for the resurrected flesh to rule forever. This glorified fluid flowing through glorified veins is not referred to as blood anymore, thereby the kingdom inheritance in the flesh is still intact and so is Hell. Flesh and superfluid can inherit the kingdom. Flesh and blood can’t. And resurrected flesh becomes imperishable whether you live in Heaven or in Hell. I don’t believe it.
Jesus also said this to the old covenant flesh and blood Jews in the land: “And fear not the ones killing the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear the One who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (Matthew 10:28) Yes, bodies and souls can die and perish. I’m not willing to compromise my own soul for man-made creeds that say nobody ever perishes, even if they forcefully (unreasonably) censor me. No human should be made to fear being burned for eternity in agonizing flames, let alone fear those who want me to believe it. The “punishing” for sin is not eternal; unbelievers are burned up and cease to exist. Their end is eternal and final. I believe it because the Bible teaches it. I don’t consult our two-page church creed to see if the Bible is true.
“The soul that sins shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:20) “The wages of the sin is the death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) If you don’t receive the gift of eternal life, you do receive the wages of your sin. However, the death (the first death of those on hold in Hades or the second death in the lake of fire) is not “eternal life burning.” Destruction means you perish forever, not you are forever perishing. Those in the first death were put on hold in Hades, but those in the second death were thrown into the lake of fire. Those who tried to stay in the old covenant land faced their typical destruction in Gehenna, this represented their second old covenant death. Different words can actually mean different things. Hades, the lake of fire and Gehenna have different meanings. Gehenna is the flesh and blood place of burning that corresponds to the lake of fire in the spirit realm, like the real temple is in heaven, the real place of destruction is also in the spirit realm. Gehenna in the land represented the real lake of fire or the second death. Hades was the holding place created to postpone perishing until Jesus overcame their death. Jesus did not come out of heaven to overcome their second old covenant death. He came to rescue them from landing there. And He succeeded.
If the shepherds of God’s people today require a belief in eternal flesh and bone that burns forever without being consumed, then they are being hypocrites. Like Peter they need to be called out publicly. “life to the age” in flesh and blood required keeping all of the old covenant law. That is why flesh and blood could not inherit the kingdom. The Jews didn’t need glorified flesh in order to keep the law of the land to the age and then live forever. Flesh and blood couldn’t keep the law and live forever, not even with special resurrection fluid. That is why Paul confronted Peter to his face publicly. The only way to live forever was by Holy Spirit rebirth not flesh and bone rebirth. Peter was falling for the old flesh and blood forever teaching of the Pharisees. The wooden headed tweaking of “flesh and blood” to “flesh and bone” doesn’t change it’s appeal to the flesh. It just adds a silly caveat that we don’t really want to talk about. It is a failed attempt to keep our flesh and rationally require it to be taught. If it made good sense I would willingly teach it.
The Gentiles were being saved by the same Holy Spirit birth that was required to save the Jews. Eternal life was not by way of flesh birth or flesh rebirth. Circumcision wasn’t even in the flesh anymore, nor was the new covenant body of Christ. Peter gave in to the immature Jewish peer pressure coming from the flesh-minded born-again Pharisees from Jerusalem. Peter was temporarily misleading God’s chosen people in Antioch by adding circumcision in the flesh to the single requirement for salvation. Peter gave in to the flesh and blood teaching of the born again Pharisees from the church of Jerusalem. The church in Jerusalem was still under the old covenant law of the land until they left the land, hopefully prior to AD 70. Everyone is required by law to keep the laws of the land you enter. But the church in Antioch was never under old covenant law. No body is born into or can enter into a land under old covenant law today, let alone be born again into it. Even typical circumcision pictured a type of a new creation, no longer in the flesh. The real circumcision of the heart is by the Holy Spirit not by a flint knife.
Some people today still believe that super-flesh can and must rule in the kingdom. The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:50). If you interpret that verse like a wooden head, then of course glorified flesh with heavenly fluid or no fluid at all in the veins can still rule in the kingdom. As long as we don’t call it blood. We must stand up to the peer pressure from the modern day wooden headed ‘literalists’ who say that we must return to earth in glorified flesh and bone in order to reign with Christ. These modern day Judaizers say that the reign of God’s kingdom must be visible after all and it must be in the flesh after all, therefore they made up a caveat: it must be in flesh and bone rather than in flesh and blood.
The Bible doesn’t glorify flesh and blood or flesh and bone. They are biblically the same human body. God certainly doesn’t teach that it is essential to believe in glorified flesh let alone dispensationalism, in order to be allowed to teach in His church. In fact those Jews who were born again and continued to believe in typical flesh and blood laws were the ones whose teaching was debated and corrected in a public forum. Even James (aka Jewish Jacob who was a true shepherd of God’s people, still under the law of the land in the church in Jerusalem) didn’t teach about the so called “glorified eternal flesh” that we will visibly rule in the kingdom with Christ someday.
James (aka Jacob, Jesus’ half brother in flesh and blood) is a believing Jew who finished out the age in the new covenant while the old covenant still existed. Will Jacob someday become a full brother to Jesus in a flesh and bone resurrection or will he be a glorified half brother in his supernatural Jewish flesh? There was a 40-year old covenant to new covenant overlap during the transition of covenants, during which all born again people were called brothers by rebirth. The unbelievers who tried to ignore the signs of the end stayed in Jerusalem till the old covenant completely ended, along with their forceful promotion of disinformation in the flesh. They still wanted to rule in the millennium in the flesh. They refused to reform their way of thinking. They didn’t get their way.
Gehenna was the end of their way at the end of their day. Only Jesus and His half brother in the flesh Jacob even used the word Gehenna. The Bible records Jesus applying it eleven times to the Jews. Jacob applies it once to the Hebrews. I can only assume Jacob was born again by then, anyway the Jews got the picture. There was only One Way to be covenantally saved from perishing and it had nothing to do with a glorified flesh rebirth. Modern day Bible teachers who propagandize everlasting flesh for everyone, don’t believe anyone ever perishes, neither in physical Gehenna nor the spirit realm lake of fire. I believe Jesus. He taught Nicodemus to avoid perishing by being born from above, not by a flesh rebirth as Nicodemus naturally imagined. How can anyone avoid perishing if perishing doesn’t really exist? Why not take the word perishing ‘literally’ as it was applied to the teacher of Israel? Jesus knew what He was saying and who He was saying it to. Fear of Dante’s Hell doesn’t save anybody from perishing. The Holy Spirit saves people from perishing. Why didn’t Jesus mention the eternal torture of never perishing? He could have appealed to the flesh to gain more followers.
According to dispensationalists, what is addressed to Israel is ‘earthly’ in character and is to be interpreted ‘literally’ as opposed to literaturely. This rule literalness doesn’t apply to perishing or to the kingdom within that arrived without observation. It does apply to Jews in the flesh ruling from a physical temple in Jerusalem. Not so with covenant theology. Covenant theology believes God has only one plan, not two plans for salvation. God has one people and one plan throughout redemptive history, called ‘Israel’ under the Old Testament, and called ‘the church’ under the New. This is the reformation view by definition of the word re-formation. The new covenant was re-formed out of the old. This reformation view has been ‘officially’ silenced by the deacon and elder purge at Fellowship Of Huntsville Church. Reformed and always reforming is not an acceptable view for this local church. We must believe the replacement view or the two-body view. Jesus has yet to save His chosen people. The Jews must still go to Hades and keep waiting for their Messiah. Salvation is to the Gentiles first and then to the Jews. I don’t believe it. It’s another completely backward teaching.
Reformers like Luther, Melanchthon, Calvin, Zwingli, Wesley, Owen, Bullinger, Berkhoff, Hodge, Warfield and Jesus would not qualify to teach at Fellowship Of Huntsville Church. They wanted to reform God’s people not abandon them or replace them or keep them on hold. None of the reformers agree with the modern dispensational framing of Fellowship’s creed, because none of them were dispensationalists. Dispys believe that the new covenant church is a temporary replacement of Israel, not a reformation of Israel. Is it possible that this belief is wrong and so are the people who have so expediently and so unjustly wielded it as a hammer over a their ‘adversaries’ in eschatology?
Why silence a reasonable discussion by placing a dispensational creed over the Word of God? Why not let God’s Word speak? Jesus reasonably and bravely challenged the rules made up by men. He rationally stood up for His Father’s Word. The Jews could not cudgel Jesus into silence with their man made rules. If Bible verses are so difficult for someone to discuss publicly, then maybe they can’t teach the Bible, no matter where they are permitted to speak. They need their personal church creed to teach the masses what to think. How to think is irrational to them.
Jesus is rational in his thinking. We as His followers must be forced to be irrational in order to comply with man’s age old desires for the flesh. Reason does not require force. That is why reason is so feared by the church censors. They try to silence the so called eschatological ‘disinformation’. Reason is too influential to be allowed back into the monotonous monologue at this point. Our culture has peaked out on the irrational, hence no reasonable conversation is doable, let alone desirable by the status quo. The church should be bravely leading us back to the Bible, not covering it up with more incredulous ‘end time’ notions that aren’t allowed to be scripturally debated in the church.
The Bible can make sense out of all our creedal contradictions, if we allow it. Brave people still dare to speak the truth. The cowardly still try to censor the truth without reason. They simply claim the moral high ground because they fear public discussion. A one way ‘conversation’ is nonsensical by definition and tyrannical by necessity. People want to know the truth that stands up to real questions. The corrupt status quo can’t stand up to a real debate. Get real. The real temple is in heaven not on earth. The one on earth was a temporary copy. This is not just my opinion. It was written to the reformation Hebrews while the copy was still standing. Hebrews was written to the Hebrews about their superior new covenant that essentially operates out of the true temple in heaven. The Hebrews who were born again didn’t perish or go to Hades to keep on waiting for their rebirth. Born again people go to heaven when they die. The long wait in Hades is over. The Holy Spirit Jesus sent from heaven indwells all God’s chosen people before they die. Not just some of them. Jesus lost none that were His and He still loses none that are His.
Hebrews 8:4-7
LITV 4 For if indeed He [Jesus] were on earth, He would not even be a priest, there being those priests offering gifts according to the Law, 5 who serve the pattern of and shadow of heavenly things, even as Moses was divinely warned, being about to make the tabernacle: For He [God] says, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown to you in the mount.” Ex. 25:40 6 But now He [Jesus] has gotten a more excellent ministry, also by so much as He is a Mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first [covenant] was faultless, place would not have been sought for a second.